RE: SH Rebirth
I just wanted to say that I totally agree with Haegun. I know I'm new to the guild, but I bought this game for PvP. I've been on a few GvG runs, and while necessary, it's quite laggy and not as fun as I would imagine full group PvP would be.
Although I'm new to SH and new to SB I think I have a few ideas that are worth sharing. In another MMORPG I was the equivelent of an IC.
First, I've noticed that SH has quite a few members that( given the questions I've seen asked in /gu or in groups not many people) are NOT building optimized PvP builds. Because if this I suggest the next 5 initiatives.
A) Class Leaders - There should be class leaders for certain classes and groups of classes. Seasoned and respected PvP members that can ensure that SH members are creating effective PvP builds. This doesn't mean that everyone has to play the same templates, but everyone should have 2 to 3 optimized PvP builds and those should be worked on immediately. Fun builds can wait.
B) Units - We should organize units. This would mean there would be a unit leader/co-leader that will design and organize and run a unit. Design would mean they would specify what classes are needed and how each class should be built to compliment the group. Of course Haegun and appointed experienced PvP SH members would run this. We should strive to have 2 to 3 full groups of PvP on per night(high hopes, but I think we should shoot for this, and yes that may mean recruiting). I plan on eventually have 3 R5 characters, one bound to each TOL. I really think organized units are the key to success... not only in PvP effectiveness, but creating a sense of unity, family and most importantly the idea that your team really needs you and you need to log in nightly. I've often noticed how bored CyDin has been I'm sure he'd play alot more if he had a unit, and was PvPing on a regular basis. I'm sure alot of others would do the same.
C) War Games - What can I say here. I'm still green. I've read more then most... I ask more questions then most... I probably understand the game mechanics more then most... but I still don't have any real world PvP experience due to a lack of r5 characters. As units start to gel, we should be conducting war games as preparation for raids, especially in the early unit days.
D) Active Intelligence - Infiltrating and knowing the enemy. Only with reliable intelligence, location of enemy hunting grounds and movement can we hope to effectively hunt and thwart the enemy.
E) Active Leadership - With the mass exodus of seasoned players to SWG, we need active leadership more then ever. I don't know if there is a schedule for making sure there is an IC on at all times and regular IC meetings, but I feel this would make a more effective guild. In real life I play soccer twice a week. I may skip the gym frequently, but I always make my soccer games and practice. The guild should be the same way. Once units are created and schedules are made, more people will participate, because the game will be more fun and people will have purpose. In my experience, purpose more then anything else drives a guild.
I was going to say that's my 2 cents, but it looks more like tree-fiddy.
As a bonus here a few links I found of late that should make for interesting reading.
I know Anvil IRL... I generally coinsider him a good source. Don't ban him yet!
I'm with you on this one. I don't like templates but the spirit is in the right place. The templates have good ideas and are easy to play. Cause the homework has been done.
My thought is perhaps this...
Pick a template. Analyze it and see if it fits.
If it does you've just saved yourself work and you can be relatively assurred your build is valid and fun til the end.
If it doesn't figure out what you don't like.
I had a Ranger with Staff. No template... Got high enough that I started to see flaws. I deleted him... But I may build it again now that I have a "personal" template. (plus the changes to Stun in the new patch make blunt weapons appealing with anytype of stuns)
Key is I've used a template. And since I know what I want to do I'll probably play it to the end (R5-R6)
If you haven't looked at Templates your missing a huge source of "Documentation".
But like pureclint "intends" (I think) don't build blind you'll look like the guy your fighting or standing next to. Where's the fun in that?
Now let's go kick ass! (But have fun doing it) *cheerleadering*
Kalimah- R3 Thief (incidentally intended to be a "true" thief)
Kalicandra- R2 Mage Bard (Support Bard)
Often Pantless and Exultant
Posts: 231
(7/11/03 7:36 pm) Reply
Re: RE: SH Rebirth
Nothing wrong with research(I do it sure) or experience but it still wont me not make a character I want to make or delete a character I enjoy...
Carter is messed in a few ways I hope the retrain feature will help some.
Luse is how I want him now with a few refinements to come as he lvls.
I dont want our guild to be a bunch of sundancer warriors(very bad ass if you build it right) Healer chans or horse whatevers that we are all the same character.
Play what you want to play dont play a toon jsut because it sould do well in PVP situations play what suits you or what your vision of said toon is, that way you enjoy the game more.
I have no problem with Anvil sharing his views and as I said most are good I do not think our guild should be so overly strucutred that every one needs a so called UBER PVP template char (and there are 5 of them so far as I know) because the guild says so. That in the end will turn people off on the guild and then possibly the game. And as I said SB is the BEST balanced MMO game made so far ANY char can be viable in some major way if played to the Characters strengths.
Carter Hall - Hawkman Barb
Luse Malache -
Assasian Elf -SB
Zabrak -SWG
Based on the Coolest Mutha Elf ever
"Yeah I coulda ben King but in my own way I am King."
Re: RE: SH Rebirth
"This DOESN'T mean that everyone has to play the same templates, but everyone should have 2 to 3 optimized PvP builds."
Luse,
I really think you took my first point the wrong way. As Kalimah pointed out templates are a good source of documentation. Most templates I have read have been shite tho... Most of the best templates I've read are better for the counter points and critiques that are made of it, then the template itself. Most people don't sit down and read the number of templates I've read, but I like to do it... I find it very educational.
With that in mind, the idea behind having class leaders isn't to prescribe templates, but to ensure that if a junior guild member has an idea for a character, that he has someone to ask questions AND prevent him from making fatal flaws. If SH is to be rebuilt... and rebuilt quickly to tackle the challenges ahead we don't have time for everyone to make 18 builds to get one that works. It's really about sharing information. I was in a guild where I eventually became a class leader. Everyone in the guild knew who the class leaders were. It was very easy to get information without having them to dig through the boards themselves... since more senior players had already done this. Also, often being class leader, I knew the people that played a particular class and I could refer new members to them. Often mentoring was delegated to the person who was best at a particular style of a character... That way the class leader didn't spend all of his time tutoring junior guild members.
Also I was expounding on Haeguns idea and I totally agree with it... let me quote him, "What I will be looking for in game is people who are ready to go out hunting with me. I will need these people to be R5 . The group will need a dedicated Scout, Healer, and a Bard would be nice. The rest will be a mix of a few Tanks and Nukers."
If one were to get a group dedicated enough to create a 'unit' of players you could design your characters so they complimented each other and not have every single person GM their Str/Con/Dex/Int buffs, etc. I'm sure you could see the advantages there.
Remember in my first point I stated, "This DOESN'T mean that everyone has to play the same templates, but everyone should have 2 to 3 optimized PvP builds".
All I'm saying is that if we are going to be effective as a guild we need to have characters that can defend the guild. And the best way to do that is to share information. People will always play the characters they want to play... No one can make you play something you don't want to. That idea it's self is crazy.
But what we can do is get like minded people together, to help others create good characters and have units where the characters compliment each other.
Re: RE: SH Rebirth
I just want to concur...especially with ALL the ideas you presented. We need to have all the things you talked about. We need to have scheduled things because most of us are adults with busy lives. I want to have fight nights. WE need to have intelligence units that send info and we need to have practice and know how to respond. The single player who goes "ooOOOooo I will run down that 187 someone called out and kill them" doesn't help. Usually gets himself killed. WE need to know how to function as groups. We are growing. We are integrating new people. We need to know how to fight the enemy from practice and learing from those with more experience together. On ALL points, I like how you think.
Thanks for the compliments. I'm sure the IC is probably attending to most of the points I brought up already. But since I'm not IC, I can only look at the guild from a bottom up perspective.
So far this is my 3rd real team based guild. In my Diablo 2 guild, the Amazon Basin, we had regular scheduled nights to play on. Heh.. everyone played all the time individually, but that just meant that people tried extra hard on those nights to get together and play as a team... units formed and we had people of similar level pooled together to power level.
In Earth and Beyond I was in Ghost Squadron, which had class leaders. It was a great idea, but really requires the leaders to play frequently to be effective.
I'm glad to see some support for my ideas. I hope they are implemented in the future... and I don't care who takes charge.
Armies are built one man at a time... and if we can organize into effective units, that play together often and as a team, I think we will be extremely effective. A team of decent players that use teamwork and can anticipate each others moves and work as a team will pound a group of extremely talented people that play as individuals.
Often Pantless and Exultant
Posts: 233
(7/14/03 12:33 pm) Reply
Re: RE: SH Rebirth
"This DOESN'T mean that everyone has to play the same templates, but everyone should have 2 to 3 optimized PvP builds".
I still do not like that statement and I never will...
Yes GVG is the high end content but it is NOT for everyone and the guild should never never never say EVERYONE SHOULD HAVE such and such not good practice.
If someone doesnt like PvP but enjoys making toons and lvling/farming/shop running whatever then let them do that.
I like you points and like you I read tons about games I enjoy, I think every one should be encouraged to ask some OOC questions in game or on the boards if they are not sure of a build but as I said I will never believe anyone should be forced to make acharacter weather it is a template or a char made for any specific purpose and your statement leads to that thought. That thought and that thought alone I dont like everthing else you said and have said in your replies makes sense and clarifies the point you where trying to make just your inital wording didnt sit well with me.
I Know how games work and I understand the dynamic of a well rounded group will generally win in the end but I think to many people get caught up in the whoel "uber" race in mmos and that ruins the experience. I like having ideas my characters are based on and I love the lore I dont like that all of that is so easily thrown away in MMOs just to have a uber toon.
In the end people we both agree people should play how and what they find fun or else people will not play at all.
Carter Hall - Hawkman Barb
Luse Malache -
Assasian Elf -SB
Zabrak -SWG
Based on the Coolest Mutha Elf ever
"Yeah I coulda ben King but in my own way I am King."
Re: RE: SH Rebirth
I think this is a really good idea, while not everyone wants to be told what the best way to spec is it's still good to have this resource available. There are some people (like myself) who want to build a pvp viable character and make them the best they can and this would offer some good support. However, this most important as I noticed while facing our enemies this weekend is that we get some levels under our belt as both r30's and 187 seem to have significantly higher levels than ourselves.
I read, study, see what's good, bad, ugly then ultimately I chose a path along the way that suits my play style.
Morbid is a good example. While definatly not the oobah PvP template he tends to do ok, especially in seiges. I started with some templates, did the research, and eventually "deviated from the path" so to speak, to what he is today. With my Resists gear on I can pretty much stand toe-to-toe with any H/C or 'Fessor, except those damn Ice H/C's.
I understand both Carter's and Anvil's points. I hate the idea of "cookie-cutter", hell I was the first 50 Saracen Polearman on the Pellinor Server in DAoC, that was a stretch
While no one should be forced to build a character they do not wish to play, we should stress to people to more actively post there current templates and there future direction. IT could help in the long run. Kind of an "Ask the Experts".
Morbid Crescent
59 - Dwarf Prelate: Stout Drinkin' Womanizer
Jungle Boogy
38 - Centaur Huntress: Disco Sucks!
Brim Stone
22 - Irekei Mage Bard: Utility Nuker (Gimped till 55)
I guess you read my statement more closely then I did, and focused on one word "everyone" which I did say, but didn't place as much emphasis on it as you did.
I guess I really should have said the following:
A) Yea Haegun! Let's protect the guild! Let's stick it to those 187 and R30 bastards.
B) Boy it would be really nice if every had a character or two to protect the guild with, instead of having a bunch of R2, R3 alts. (Which I'm very guilty of)
C) Hmmm... maybe people have a bunch of alts because they are learning the game and aren't sure how to make an effective PvP character.
D) Wow, it would be really great if we got a brain trust together and helped those who wanted to make great PvP characters make them in the shortest time possible, instead of leveling up 15 R3 characters.
The above probably more closely represents my feelings... but doesn't really rally the troops. To do that you have to really pull a Winston Churchill and make those absolute statements as if it came from on high.
I made the original post that started this whole seperate thread. I would like to make a few comments.
I will start going to the enemy as soon as my PvP character is LVL 50.
You can join me or you can stay and farm/exp/re-roll new alts. Those are your choices. I will not look down on someone if they do not like to PVP. There are days where I sneak away and re-roll a new alt myself.
My cry out was to the people who did want to go out and PVP. If they are using a "Cookie-Cutter" build, then that build has had some sucess in the past for PVP and was thought out and posted for critique on the SB site or wherever esle. I spend a good hour or 2 a day at work reading on new builds and will not even look at a build until it has been replied to at least 15-20 times. I look for people like myself that look at these templates and find flaws or ways to improve on the initial concept. I have studied Bards for a bit now and have seen templates come and go. I have taken some of the knowledge that I have gathered and implemented it but I am doing things differently than what the Templates stated. I am customizing my character the way that I want him to be. I have to play him and no one else. I have a 48 Healer/Crusader that does not and never will have Summons. I have been on TeamSpeak with other Reborn Nation memebers and have heard them scoff at me for it. I basically told them to take a flying leap. Summons is a good thing but in my build I have no room to bring up Restoration to the level to get summons. My theroy behind this was that Fighter/Crusaders do not get summons, why should I get it just to have it? Again this is my character and will play it as I want to.
Every build that I start is always geared at PVP or PVP Group support. Even though I sometime follow or do not follow the clearly defined lines for building, the end result that I want is always going to be a PVP built character that can take 2-3 people or more down with me. Anyone can make a Character/Build in this game into a Farmer/PowerLeveler. Those builds are essential to us as Silver Hand to survive as a Guild. My next Toon will be someting that can carry alot of stuff so that I can use him/her to farm, farm, farm and farm some more.
Basically what I am trying to say is that there is a place in this game for all sorts of builds and play styles. Just go with which one that you feel more comfortable with and above all else enjoy your self.
This is a game and games are meant to be FUN!!
Haegun Brimstone
Co-Guild Leader
The Order of the Silver Hand
Incidentally anybody notice on Newb Isle nobody wants to say their primary's Guild unless your Reborn?? I'm proud to say it. Lotta people are either scared or ashamed.
Why? Because "We are going to Kick A$$" were just in the quiet before the storm right now.
Often Pantless and Exultant
Posts: 235
(7/15/03 9:00 am) Reply
Re: RE: SH Rebirth
Anvils,
I know what you are saying about using a absolute tone and have to do that regularly.
And I do agree with your post all except this portion of your first point...
"This doesn't mean that everyone has to play the same templates, but everyone should have 2 to 3 optimized PvP builds and those should be worked on immediately. Fun builds can wait." Your telling people what to play and how to do it, that in its core is not cool.
Otherwise Like everyone else here I support your ideas and yes I read templates to (God knows I waste to many hours at work skimming websites).
So basicly dont rewrite the whole statement for me just losen up your reigns on the first part with more like "Those who want to be in our special PVP forces...." that way it isnt a general guild spanning statement.
and on that note I am done with this discussion....officially.
Carter Hall - Hawkman Barb
Luse Malache -
Assasian Elf -SB
Zabrak -SWG
Based on the Coolest Mutha Elf ever
"Yeah I coulda ben King but in my own way I am King."
Re: RE: SH Rebirth
heh, ive been in some newb isle groups with both reborn and 187/r30s in them and you should here some of the trash talking that goes on, quite entertaining really
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